Gas vs EV costs EV wins check my math

2546 Views 72 Replies 18 Participants Last post by Ed Woodrick, 4 d ago

chicagobob123

Discussion Starter · 2 mo ago (Edited)

So I am at an airport with too much time and thought how much will road tripping in my Model 3 cost vs a gas car. I'm using 34 cents a kwh charging rate because it's what I see most here in the midwest. I get 224Wh/mile going at speed which turns 4.64 miles/kW. So average gas cars get about 26mpg highway. Some get more others get less. 26/4.64 = 5.6 × .34 cents = 1.90 a gallon equivalent. Vs whatever today's cost per gallon is. WOW Im living back in the 60s. Check my math but even if all you did is supercharge your way better off. Gas here today 4.24 and I heard its heading to $5.
Ok of I have a led foot I use 244 per mile which in the end is the gas equivalent of $2.15 electic gallon

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JasonF

· #2 · 2 mo ago

You missed one thing! I'm no math expert so I can't help you, but remember that when you roadtrip, you would have "filled up" the car at about 15 cents per kWh at home for the first (average) 240-ish miles' worth.

What you might want to do to save you some math is put your trip into A Better Route Planner. It will tell you how much the total charging costs are.

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chicagobob123

Discussion Starter · #3 · 2 mo ago

That's true.

Ed Woodrick

· #4 · 2 mo ago

The comparison varies dependent on your cost of gas and electricity.

Supercharger rates have gone up in the last year so that they aren't highly competitive with gas.

But I pay about $0.07 /kWh in the winter for electricity. So my economics are different.

Don't forget the oil changes and the convenience of not having to stop at the gas station.

francoisp

· #5 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

chicagobob123 said:
So I am at an airport with too much time and thought how much will road tripping in my Model 3 cost vs a gas car. I'm using 34 cents a kwh charging rate because it's what I see most here in the midwest. I get 224Wh/mile going at speed which turns 4.64 miles/kW. So average gas cars get about 26mpg highway. Some get more others get less. 26/4.64 = 5.6 × .34 cents = 1.90 a gallon equivalent. Vs whatever today's cost per gallon is. WOW Im living back in the 60s. Check my math but even if all you did is supercharge your way better off. Gas here today 4.24 and I heard its heading to $5.
Ok of I have a led foot I use 244 per mile which in the end is the gas equivalent of $2.15 electic gallon

My Y has a consumption of around 265 watts per mile going 70mph which is 3.77 miles per kw. Last May, on my way to Montreal through NY state, the average price was 41 cents per kw. Compared to my 2012 Genesis 3.8L that gets 31 mph, the per gallon price is $3.37. It's about what I would pay for unleaded gas in Cleveland at the moment. Hardly any savings when traveling long distance.

Out of an average of 15,000 miles per year, about 5000 miles require supercharging requiring ~1300 kw.

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Klaus-rf

· #6 · 2 mo ago

Compared to my $20K Prius that gets 50+ MPH using <$3.00/gal 87 octane petrol, while my TM3 costs more if using SC feeding. Not to mention the TM3 costs 3x more to buy nad at least 4x to insure.

chicagobob123

Discussion Starter · #7 · 2 mo ago

Prius is special. I looked up average and it's 26. My old car was getting about 23. Your mileage may vary. You must have bought the performance M3. I have the base with rebate gets close to the Prius with extras

bwilson4web

· #8 · 2 mo ago

JasonF said:
when you roadtrip, you would have "filled up" the car at about 15 cents per kWh at home for the first (average) 240-ish miles' worth.

I don't worry about it because I arrive at near empty and recharge to my regular level, 75-80%. Just track the road chargers as they would not have happened if you weren't taking a trip.

Other tricks:

Stay at a motel with free overnight charging and breakfast - this saves ~200 miles of EV charging.
Use free L2 along route and slow speeds, +/- 5 mph, to avoid 'diverting miles' when SuperCharger is not along route.
- Autopilot loves to drive patiently at slower speeds while you listen to tunes.

Bob Wilson

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MachV

· #9 · 2 mo ago

Daytime Supercharger costs $.60 at the ONLY station in Hawaii. (BTW the line is sometimes 1hr+ and it averages 70kW due to 500KW transformer limitations). I'm averaging 285Wh/mile, with AC on, traveling at reasonable highway speed. You are cheaper driving a gas car if it gets better than 25mpg than a Model Y or Model 3. And if you keep sentry mode on all the time, it gets even worse. If electric was $.10, then the EV is obviously 6x better so the gas car would need to be 150mpg.

Some stations in CA I've also seen at $.58/kW, although I've seen them come down recently.

Main points - Depending on some of the variables: price per kW, gas cost, efficiency, you can find a dramatic difference of costs. The most dramatic is the cost of electricity. Gas prices may vary by 2-3% locally, EV efficiency may vary by 20-30%, but charging costs vary by 50-100% cheaper at home or even by supercharger. Some places have free EV charging. None have free gas.

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chicagobob123

Discussion Starter · #10 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

MachV said:
but charging costs vary by 50-100% cheaper at home or even by supercharger. Some places have free EV charging. None have free gas.

Do you think Hawaii is taking advantage of you or is there something else going on? Is the cost of electricity that expensive? You would think they would use thermal power generators like they do in other places where there are volcanos. I am not sure what is going on with that price in Ca. At least with an adapter you can use EA if you need to. I am here in Ca and see a TON of Teslas. Its nice to see.
Gas in Hawaii is over $5.00 that gets pricey too.

francoisp

· #11 · 2 mo ago (Edited)

chicagobob123 said:
Do you think Hawaii is taking advantage of you or is there something else going on? Is the cost of electricity that expensive? You would think they would use thermal power generators like they do in other places where there are volcanos. I am not sure what is going on with that price in Ca. At least with an adapter you can use EA if you need to. I am here in Ca and see a TON of Teslas. Its nice to see.
Gas in Hawaii is over $5.00 that gets pricey too.

The federal Energy Information Administration estimates that 77% of Hawaii's power comes from burning fossil fuels, mostly oil and some coal. (source) That would explain the high cost of electricity.

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chicagobob123

Discussion Starter · #12 · 2 mo ago

francoisp said:
The federal Energy Information Administration estimates that 77% of Hawaii's power comes from burning fossil fuels, mostly oil and some coal. (source) That would explain the high cost of electricity.

Thats awful. They have volcanos and like people in Iceland who used hydro and Geothermal power they could too. In 2020, 99.94% of electricity in Iceland was produced by hydro and geothermal. So basically fuel free power from what you have in abundance.

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francoisp

· #13 · 2 mo ago

chicagobob123 said:
Thats awful. They have volcanos and like people in Iceland who used hydro and Geothermal power they could too. In 2020, 99.94% of electricity in Iceland was produced by hydro and geothermal. So basically fuel free power from what you have in abundance.

They are moving toward 100% clean energy by 2045. It's a slow process unfortunately. We lack enlightened politicians.

chicagobob123

Discussion Starter · #14 · 2 mo ago

When its more than 10 years its very suspect government work. If by 2030 they were 80% clean than I could believe it. They have a place that has rain a lot so hydro generation is possible. Then the volcanos should offer a lot of geothermal and last you can use wind or solar.

garsh

· #15 · 2 mo ago

chicagobob123 said:
Thats awful. They have volcanos and like people in Iceland who used hydro and Geothermal power they could too. In 2020, 99.94% of electricity in Iceland was produced by hydro and geothermal. So basically fuel free power from what you have in abundance.

Hawaii's volcanos are very active. That causes some big complications.

The Puna Geothermal Venture (PGV) is a geothermal energy power plant on the island of Hawaii, the largest island in the state of Hawaii. The plant was shut down shortly after the start of the May 2018 lower Puna eruption, and resumed power generation in November 2020. The eruption had caused lava to flow over a PGV power substation, a warehouse and at least three geothermal wells that had been preventatively quenched and capped when lava fountains erupted nearby, eventually also cutting off road access.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puna_Geothermal_Venture

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chicagobob123

Discussion Starter · #16 · 2 mo ago

garsh said:
Hawaii's volcanos are very active. That causes some big complications.

The Puna Geothermal Venture (PGV) is a geothermal energy power plant on the island of Hawaii, the largest island in the state of Hawaii. The plant was shut down shortly after the start of the May 2018 lower Puna eruption, and resumed power generation in November 2020. The eruption had caused lava to flow over a PGV power substation, a warehouse and at least three geothermal wells that had been preventatively quenched and capped when lava fountains erupted nearby, eventually also cutting off road access.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puna_Geothermal_Venture

I guess that can happen anytime you try to harness earths power of molten rock. Maybe next time use the oil industries ability to drill sideways, like I actually know, hope they have better luck and try other areas.

bwilson4web

· #17 · 2 mo ago

Having spent a year on the island of Okinawa, there is so much wind and wave energy available and not harnessed. Solar too.

Bob Wilson

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JasonF

· #18 · 2 mo ago

bwilson4web said:
Having spent a year on the island of Okinawa, there is so much wind and wave energy available and not harnessed. Solar too.

A lot of this has to do with upfront costs more than anything else. A coal, oil, or gas generation facility is much cheaper than an equivelent wind or solar farm, and much cheaper than geothermal and nuclear. The total cost of ownership over the lifetime of the plant is much higher for coal, oil, and gas (because of fuel and EPA regulation) but that's not how businesses work - they have one division that presents the initial costs, and then the fuel/regulation/maintenance is another department's problem.

francoisp

· #19 · 2 mo ago

JasonF said:
A lot of this has to do with upfront costs more than anything else. A coal, oil, or gas generation facility is much cheaper than an equivalent wind or solar farm, and much cheaper than geothermal and nuclear.

I did a quick research and you may want to revise your assertion. For example a new 960 MW coal power plant costs about $3B or $3000 per kw. A similar solar power plant costs $1000 per kw. That's why no new coal plants are built. A gas power plant is also more expensive to build than solar or wind. And like you said, wind and solar do not depend on fluctuating fuel costs so the roi is predictable.

I think the main issue in many instances is that there's enough power to go around so there's little incentive to build new plants. The incentive to go green will come from operating costs of existing plants that are becoming uneconomical (compared to the alternative) or from the need to replace a plant that is at its end of life. That later reason could be why Hawaii is talking about 2045.

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JasonF

· #20 · 2 mo ago

francoisp said:
I did a quick research and you may want to revise your assertion. For example a new 960 MW coal power plant costs about $3B or $3000 per kw. A similar solar power plant costs $1000 per kw. That's why no new coal plants are built. A gas power plant is also more expensive to build than solar or wind. And like you said, wind and solar do not depend on fluctuating fuel costs so the roi is predictable.

Does that include the land and infrastructure build needed to get the power to the distribution network? Or a battery array for solar/wind in case it's not sunny or not windy? That's what it takes to make them equivalent, since fueled generation can run 24/7. At least if you exclude "California assumptions" about clean energy - that people will turn off their A/C and reduce their power usage when the sun goes down.

francoisp said:
I think the main issue in many instances is that there's enough power to go around so there's little incentive to build new plants. The incentive to go green will come from operating costs of existing plants that are becoming uneconomical (compared to the alternative) or from the need to replace a plant that is at its end of life. That later reason could be why Hawaii is talking about 2045.

I think that every single power company will continue to hold out until either their power generation infrastructure fails from fatigue, or until the fuel for it becomes completely unavailable. Until then, increasing fuel costs won't faze them, because they will just pass that on to customers. They also know very well that if they let it become a crisis, the government will have to subsidize building the next generation of power generation.

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