[Garlan Garner]

From the site I quoted above.

Why Lithium-Ion 12v Battery is a Bad Idea
There are 12v lithium-ion drop-in replacements for ICE car batteries. These are quite a bit more expensive but do weigh less - so you'd think they would be great in an EV. Not so fast. Turns out for Tesla's application the frequent deep charge/discharge cycles would greatly shorten the life of a lithium-ion battery designed for ICE cars, perhaps only lasting 6 months to a year. Since there is no climate control on the 12v battery, it's life would also be shortened if you encounter climate extremes. Lithium-ion 12v battery makes little economic sense in a Tesla.

Good thing mine came with a 4 year warranty.

 

[GeoJohn23]

Late Sept 2018 delivery Model 3, Northern California car, currently on software version 2021.4.11, this message popped up on Friday - made an appointment via the phone app for mobile service Thursday (they actually messaged me on Monday Noon that they had a mobile service opening that day from 1-4 if I wanted it, but my wife had just left with the car shortly before for the afternoon, so I just stayed with the Thurs appointment).

<edit> can't seem to figure out how to attach a photo vis the phone, just says it's too large (older forum software had options for size of photo attachments; but don't see that now). Anyway, message was longish saying that the 12V battery has degraded and should be replaced soon, although it should continue to work for a while; but software updates will be suspended until the battery is replaced. It then gave some info about what to do if the battery does go dead...

12V battery replaced today by Mobile Service in less than 7 minutes (half of which was the time to check/adjust tire pressure as required by CA law anytime they do any service). Fully covered under warranty, no charge.

 

[hkluis]

Mine has just been replaced after only 3 years (of which one year had almost no-operation due to the pandemic lockdown) and 35K miles. But I was pleasantly surprised that it's still covered under warranty. The mobile service came an hour early, and but the time I was notified of his presence, he was already done. He said the early batteries did have some longevity problems, but the replacement should last over 5 years. Tesla is a breakthrough not just in technology but how they treat customers!

 

[ULEWZ]

Mine lasted just 4 months shy of 3 years. Always left on the charger and always garaged. It gave my wife quite the scare when the drivers window went half way down, the screen was black, and she could not open the doors. She called me on her cell from the garage and I had to go out to show her how to open the door manually (yes, I showed her before). Smelled a little rotten eggs from the fronk area, and when the service advisor removed the existing battery, the sides were bulging. NO cost to replace by the way, but the batteries looked identical.

 

[JasonF]

Smelled a little rotten eggs from the fronk area, and when the service advisor removed the existing battery, the sides were bulging. NO cost to replace by the way, but the batteries looked identical.

Somewhat ironically, the rotten egg smell and bulging can be caused by overcharging.

 

[ULEWZ]

Somewhat ironically, the rotten egg smell and bulging can be caused by overcharging.

And this:

1. Rotten egg smell
One of the first symptoms of a problem with the battery is a rotten egg smell. Conventional acid lead automotive batteries are filled with a mixture of water and sulfuric acid. As the battery wears, some of the acid and water may evaporate which will disturb the mixture. This may cause the battery to overheat or boil, which will produce an unpleasant smell, and even smoking in more severe cases.

 

[Jim H]

Good thing mine came with a 4 year warranty.

If your Lithium replacement fails within the 4 year warranty period, you get a free replacement. Good deal unless it fails in middle of no where on a trip. Can't call Tesla to replace non OEM battery under warranty. Get a tow and wait till free replacement Lithium gets sent to you. When Lithiums go, they seem to go abruptly, not a gradual decrease in output. Not sure if Lithiums can be jumped started either.
just a few things to consider with going Lithium 12v. I was going to go this route as well, until my 12v failed and was replaced under warranty. Light weight was the main selling point, but the above mentioned points were my negatives.
There seems to have been a reduction in charge rate of 12v with one of the software updates. Initially when first signs of 12v battery failures started to appear, I tested my 12v charge rate and it was close to 15v. Always felt that was high. After I had the 12v replaced, I checked it again and it was closer to 14v. That number alone should allow for a longer lifespan for the 12v.

 

[JasonF]

When Lithiums go, they seem to go abruptly, not a gradual decrease in output. Not sure if Lithiums can be jumped started either.

I've known this since I tried putting lithium batteries in an electronic door lock. They work perfect 100%, no warning from unlock motor slowdown, until one day it's completely dead.

Whether or not they can be jump started depends on whether the battery has gone open circuit or not. A jump pack isn't a defibrillator, it's just a 12 volt source.

 

[GDN]

Mine lasted just 4 months shy of 3 years. Always left on the charger and always garaged. It gave my wife quite the scare when the drivers window went half way down, the screen was black, and she could not open the doors. She called me on her cell from the garage and I had to go out to show her how to open the door manually (yes, I showed her before). Smelled a little rotten eggs from the fronk area, and when the service advisor removed the existing battery, the sides were bulging. NO cost to replace by the way, but the batteries looked identical.

This is not directed at you or your wife, but knowing about and remembering to use that manual release could truly be the difference in life or death based on a wreck or some other situation. I hope all learn about it and remember it.

 

[JWardell]

I've known this since I tried putting lithium batteries in an electronic door lock. They work perfect 100%, no warning from unlock motor slowdown, until one day it's completely dead.

Whether or not they can be jump started depends on whether the battery has gone open circuit or not. A jump pack isn't a defibrillator, it's just a 12 volt source.

I doubt the battery is dead, you are describing how the electronics perform, which like many other items have a low voltage limit at which they shut down in order to protect the battery. Your observations simply just say they lock was better designed within the relatively higher power curve of the lion battery compared to a similar alkaline battery product, and those most certainly can't handle as much power as long, so you notice them getting much slower well before the software in the electronics decides it is time to shut down.
And that doesn't have much to do with a 12v car battery.

It's also not so easy to kill a lion 12v car battery. But what a lot of you seem to mistaking for "dead" is simply when Tesla's software decides to put up an alert, or decides to stop charging the battery. But it's not the battery chemistry to blame, and it's not doing anything wrong.
It's Tesla's software, which monitors and handles its 12v battery in ways no other car does. It measures every bit of energy in and out, and shuts things down when they get suspicious. Because it is specifically made for the lead acid battery they use. Swapping out a different chemistry with different curves is going to confuse it and ask for trouble. Connecting aftermarket loads directly to the battery is also asking for trouble. It's not that it will hurt the physical battery, its that Tesla's software is not written for anything else.

It remains to be seen exactly how Tesla will be handling the new 12v lion battery in the plaid S but you can be sure they are going to use a healthy amount of software wizardry and it will again not be smart to modify it.

 

[Tchris]

If your Lithium replacement fails within the 4 year warranty period, you get a free replacement. Good deal unless it fails in middle of no where on a trip. Can't call Tesla to replace non OEM battery under warranty. Get a tow and wait till free replacement Lithium gets sent to you. When Lithiums go, they seem to go abruptly, not a gradual decrease in output. Not sure if Lithiums can be jumped started either.
just a few things to consider with going Lithium 12v. I was going to go this route as well, until my 12v failed and was replaced under warranty. Light weight was the main selling point, but the above mentioned points were my negatives.
There seems to have been a reduction in charge rate of 12v with one of the software updates. Initially when first signs of 12v battery failures started to appear, I tested my 12v charge rate and it was close to 15v. Always felt that was high. After I had the 12v replaced, I checked it again and it was closer to 14v. That number alone should allow for a longer lifespan for the 12v.

If your Tesla OEM battery fails in the middle of nowhere, you're pretty much screwed as well. Also, Tesla is now putting Lithium batteries in the Model S and X.

 

[android04]

If your Tesla OEM battery fails in the middle of nowhere, you're pretty much screwed as well. Also, Tesla is now putting Lithium batteries in the Model S and X.

True if "middle of nowhere" is a desert or forest or something. But if "middle of nowhere" is a small town with an auto parts store, then they will most likely have a group size 51R lead acid battery to replace whatever 12v battery you had (51R are common in many Hondas).

 

[Tchris]

True if "middle of nowhere" is a desert or forest or something. But if "middle of nowhere" is a small town with an auto parts store, then they will most likely have a group size 51R lead acid battery to replace whatever 12v battery you had (51R are common in many Hondas).

Well, in that case you're covered whether you have a lithium or lead acid battery right?

 

[garsh]

Well, in that case you're covered whether you have a lithium or lead acid battery right?

It's still early days for Lithium 12v batteries. You're unlikely to find a replacement at your local car battery store.

 

[Jim H]

Well, in that case you're covered whether you have a lithium or lead acid battery right?

I carry a jumper 12v kit I got at Costco, to give me a jump on the 12v if needed. A jumped lead acid battery should allow you to continue on your way so you can get a replacement.
Not sure if you can jump a 12v lithium.
True on the 51R size, which you can usually find at many places.

 

[JasonF]

Technically you can remove the 12v battery entirely, tape a jump pack in its place (don't leave it loose or it will fall off), and attach the clamps to the battery cables (tape them up to keep them somewhat secure), and then drive someplace safe. I wouldn't recommend leaving it that way, but it's possible in an emergency. Even more so in an EV because the underhood area doesn't get hot or vibrate as much.

Another cool Tesla trick that I myself used when my battery died, once you get the car to turn on and the contactors closed (the "thunk" noise from beneath it), turn the A/C on and set it for Climate Keeper or Dog Mode if you have to stop for some reason - even to charge. That will keep the contactors from opening, and you'll have a ready supply of 12 volts the whole way. If you have to stop somewhere for a very long time, use Camp Mode instead, as Climate Keeper will time out.

 

[Tchris]

It's still early days for Lithium 12v batteries. You're unlikely to find a replacement at your local car battery store.

That is true. But that doesn't mean you can't replace a lithium with a lead acid if you're in a bind. That was my point. If you're on the road and in a remote location, you're in pretty much the same predicament whether you have a lithium or lead acid battery. If you can find a lead acid replacement, you are good to go in either case. If you can't, then your going to have to get a tow, or have a battery brought to you in either case.

 

[Tchris]

I carry a jumper 12v kit I got at Costco, to give me a jump on the 12v if needed. A jumped lead acid battery should allow you to continue on your way so you can get a replacement.
Not sure if you can jump a 12v lithium.
True on the 51R size, which you can usually find at many places.

I do the same. I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, thankfully. I am not aware of any problems with jump starting a lithium battery, but then again I don't know for a fact that there aren't. I'll have to look into it.

 

[Tchris]

I c

I do the same. I haven't had the opportunity to try it yet, thankfully. I am not aware of any problems with jump starting a lithium battery, but then again I don't know for a fact that there aren't. I'll have to look into it.

I contacted Ohmmu Energy to inquire as to whether or not you can jump start their 12V lithium battery (LiFePO4). The answer from them is "Yes you can". They provided the following additional information:

To further explain; "jump" starting a Tesla is just applying 12V to wake it back up. If the vehicle is working properly the DC/DC will turn on when you turn the car ON and keep the 12V system voltage active.

The only problem with some scenarios is when someone would try to use a 24V jump system, for lead acid it's ok to sit on 24V for a while and it won't do much. In our lithium batteries the charge rate will be very high and it could trip the BMS to turn off. So, be weary of 24V "jump" systems is all.

12V (like from another vehicle) are all gonna be totally fine.

--
Ohmmu Energy
Tempe, AZ 85283

 

[android04]

Technically you can remove the 12v battery entirely, tape a jump pack in its place (don't leave it loose or it will fall off), and attach the clamps to the battery cables (tape them up to keep them somewhat secure), and then drive someplace safe. I wouldn't recommend leaving it that way, but it's possible in an emergency. Even more so in an EV because the underhood area doesn't get hot or vibrate as much.

Another cool Tesla trick that I myself used when my battery died, once you get the car to turn on and the contactors closed (the "thunk" noise from beneath it), turn the A/C on and set it for Climate Keeper or Dog Mode if you have to stop for some reason - even to charge. That will keep the contactors from opening, and you'll have a ready supply of 12 volts the whole way. If you have to stop somewhere for a very long time, use Camp Mode instead, as Climate Keeper will time out.

This might not work with all jump packs, because some don't output anything unless they detect a small voltage from the lead acid battery (i.e. 6V or 4V). Some (like my NOCO GB40 jump pack) have a Boost button that will allow you to bypass that for a certain amount of time. I've actually used that bypass a few times on cars with dead alternators and very low batteries to limp them to a parts store and a big box store.