No, it is not.
Cars with radar had their radar disabled starting with build 2022.20.9.
Radar Support
My Model Y came with radar. As a safety engineer using multiple sensors, e.g. radar and sight, adds redundancy and, therefore, safety. The Y no longer comes with radar. Question: Is radar still used as part of the driver safety systems (FSD, Autosteer, speed control, etc.) and still supported with updates as the software becomes more sophisticated?
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Cars with radar had their radar disabled starting with build 2022.20.9.
It seems, therefore, that I purchased safety equipment that Tesla disabled without me knowingly agreeing.
If this is the case, has Tesla demonstrably proven and published that a single system (Tesla Vision) is safer than multiple systems that came with earlier cars? I have read Mr. Musk's opinion regarding human sight. However, we would never design a chemical plant with a single layer of protection given that the probability of failure on demand is not zero. One of the substantial challenges in owning a Tesla is the complete lack of transparency. Given my substantial, repeated phantom braking events - whether or not I am in Autosteer, FSD or manual - the car is unsafe due to increased probability of being hit from behind, particularly by a semi which cannot stop as fast as the Tesla not matter how alert its systems and the driver are. Whatever the car 'sees', doesn't exist.
Unfortunately Tesla cars with or without radar can experience unexpected braking. I must say however that I've experienced less of them since the removal of the radar. Unfortunately I sometimes get "forward collision warnings" instead. So it's a mixed bag. For those of us who must deal with snowy roads, one big advantage of not having a radar is that it's no longer getting disabled due to accumulated snow on the bumper.If this is the case, has Tesla demonstrably proven and published that a single system (Tesla Vision) is safer than multiple systems that came with earlier cars? I have read Mr. Musk's opinion regarding human sight. However, we would never design a chemical plant with a single layer of protection given that the probability of failure on demand is not zero. One of the substantial challenges in owning a Tesla is the complete lack of transparency. Given my substantial, repeated phantom braking events - whether or not I am in Autosteer, FSD or manual - the car is unsafe due to increased probability of being hit from behind, particularly by a semi which cannot stop as fast as the Tesla not matter how alert its systems and the driver are. Whatever the car 'sees', doesn't exist.
I checked my dates with service. I did not have phantom braking events until June 6, 2022 traveling back from Colorado on open highway (35 events). I traveled extensively in 2021 accruing well over 10,000 miles - highway and byway. I never experienced phantom braking until an update that came on or around June 4, 2022. My car was designed for radar safety systems. I now have single mode failure. Assume that I am well-rested, well-trained. The safety system invokes phantom braking for no apparent reason that I have been able to statistically correlate. I then have to respond (administrative control). In my line of work, administrative controls fail at the rate of about 1/100. If death is involved in an accident, my industry uses 1/100,000 to 1/1,000,000 event probability maximum. Given that most of these events are on highways and assuming that the probability of having a semi behind me is 1/10 when the phantom braking is invoked. My 'safety' system has a failure rate of 1/1000. This is two orders of magnitude worse than acceptable. And, since it is the safety system failure that is the initiating event, it will not help me avoid the accident. I repeat, this occurs whether in FSD, Autosteer, speed control alone, or complete manual with the safety systems seemingly disengaged include foward collision. Do the new Y's come with two foward facing cameras giving binocular vision to the software?
All Model Ys come with 9 cameras, 8 of which are exterior facing. Of the 8 exterior cameras, 3 are forward facing:I checked my dates with service. I did not have phantom braking events until June 6, 2022 traveling back from Colorado on open highway (35 events). I traveled extensively in 2021 accruing well over 10,000 miles - highway and byway. I never experienced phantom braking until an update that came on or around June 4, 2022. My car was designed for radar safety systems. I now have single mode failure. Assume that I am well-rested, well-trained. The safety system invokes phantom braking for no apparent reason that I have been able to statistically correlate. I then have to respond (administrative control). In my line of work, administrative controls fail at the rate of about 1/100. If death is involved in an accident, my industry uses 1/100,000 to 1/1,000,000 event probability maximum. Given that most of these events are on highways and assuming that the probability of having a semi behind me is 1/10 when the phantom braking is invoked. My 'safety' system has a failure rate of 1/1000. This is two orders of magnitude worse than acceptable. And, since it is the safety system failure that is the initiating event, it will not help me avoid the accident. I repeat, this occurs whether in FSD, Autosteer, speed control alone, or complete manual with the safety systems seemingly disengaged include foward collision. Do the new Y's come with two foward facing cameras giving binocular vision to the software?
Three of the eight exterior cameras are forward-facing located just behind the windshield above the rear-view mirror module.
- Wide-angle camera: Fisheye lens with a 120 degrees field of view and max distance of 60m. Captures traffic lights and any obstacles like pedestrians, cars or cyclists cutting into the path of travel at close range.
- Main camera: max distance of 150m
- Narrow-view camera: max distance of 250m
No, they didn't. I have never seen the radar specified as "safety equipment" those are your words.It seems, therefore, that I purchased safety equipment that Tesla disabled without me knowingly agreeing.
Do you require radar when you are driving, I assume not. So it is quite reasonable to believe that vision only can perform as well as humans do.
Shadow braking is not an issue because it existed when radar was used and when it isn't being used. Different software releases have commonly changed the amount of shadow braking that is seen.
I don't remember seeing that patch note - plus my car can still go all the way down to 1 in following distance. So maybe that's limited by a certain year or HW3?Cars with radar had their radar disabled starting with build 2022.20.9.
The car (A{/EAP/FSD) has no idea what is behind it nor it's approach speed. There are no rear or rear--side facing RADAR while the back-up 180-degree camera is uzseles for objects at distances greater than 20 feet.the car is unsafe due to increased probability of being hit from behind, particularly by a semi which cannot stop as fast as the Tesla not matter how alert its systems and the driver are. Whatever the car 'sees', doesn't exist.
While you may not have experienced phantom braking events, most others have. Ever since NoA came out, about 4 years ago or so, there have been phantom braking events.I checked my dates with service. I did not have phantom braking events until June 6, 2022 traveling back from Colorado on open highway (35 events). I traveled extensively in 2021 accruing well over 10,000 miles - highway and byway.
Some people get them more than others. Some people freak out more than others about them, and some software updates have been better or worse than others.
Interesting that you seem to wait until the last few days of the software release to complain. The major release that is imminent should have significant differences.
I believe that the following distance and maximum speed limitations were removed in a subsequent release.I don't remember seeing that patch note - plus my car can still go all the way down to 1 in following distance. So maybe that's limited by a certain year or HW3?
I completely agree with your general frustration. But this particular argument has zero merit. We continually hear from those that say they COULD have been rear-ended. I have yet to hear of a single incident in which phantom braking DID cause someone to be rear-ended.the car is unsafe due to increased probability of being hit from behind
Follow distance is pulled in the V11 stackI believe that the following distance and maximum speed limitations were removed in a subsequent release.
My biggest concern about not getting radar on my 2023 Model 3 Performance is the lack of forward "vision" in fog or heavy rain. I know several people with cars that have adaptive cruise control who feel like they've been saved from rear-ending a vehicle in fog or rain because of the radar incorporated in the adaptive cruise circuitry. I'm a professional maritime captain and rely on radar to not only see well beyond normal visual distance, but to also see/avoid closer targets in adverse weather conditions.
Uhmm...I completely agree with your general frustration. But this particular argument has zero merit. We continually hear from those that say they COULD have been rear-ended. I have yet to hear of a single incident in which phantom braking DID cause someone to be rear-ended.
Exclusive: Surveillance Footage of Tesla Crash on SF’s Bay Bridge Hours After Elon Musk Announces “Self-Driving” Feature
Musk has said Tesla’s problematic autopilot features are “really the difference between Tesla being worth a lot of money or worth basically zero.”
theintercept.com
TouchéUhmm...
However, I'd point out that the car was braking fairly slowly, and the driver had time to take over. This looks like a case where the driver had fallen asleep, or was otherwise not paying attention.
Not a valid response.Uhmm...
Exclusive: Surveillance Footage of Tesla Crash on SF’s Bay Bridge Hours After Elon Musk Announces “Self-Driving” Feature
Musk has said Tesla’s problematic autopilot features are “really the difference between Tesla being worth a lot of money or worth basically zero.”
A) That's a news report and contains "driver said". And in so many cases, it has been found that a driver will say anything to attempt to blame the autopilot.
B) This was not phantom braking. When the car phantom brakes, it doesn't change lanes beforehand.
As @garsh said, changing lanes and coming to a stop sound like a driver that is passed out. The number of alarms that go off before this occurs are huge.
If you have the NHTSA results from the investigation that says otherwise, please post.
Do you have a link to confirm this?Follow distance is pulled in the V11 stack
I haven’t gotten the V11 update yet, but I haven’t seen any reporting suggesting that the speed and following distance limitations with Tesla Vision have changed. And some websites with details about the release notes (like this one) still specifically mention the 85mph top speed and 2-7 following distance.
That would be news to me. Unless you’re talking the most recent V11, that definitely hasn’t been the case in my car.I believe that the following distance and maximum speed limitations were removed in a subsequent release.
Glad to hear your experience has been decent. My car’s performance in inclement weather (or sometimes even in sunny weather) got MUCH worse when Tesla forcibly disabled my radar.Unfortunately Tesla cars with or without radar can experience unexpected braking. I must say however that I've experienced less of them since the removal of the radar. Unfortunately I sometimes get "forward collision warnings" instead. So it's a mixed bag. For those of us who must deal with snowy roads, one big advantage of not having a radar is that it's no longer getting disabled due to accumulated snow on the bumper.
Before Tesla Vision, over 4 Chicago winters, I had AP cut out on me maybe 4 or 5 times in total due to wet snow sticking and accumulating on my front bumper. And all I had to do to fix it was to pull over, wipe a few square inches of snow off of a small section of the bumper next to the license plate, and then be on my way with everything working fine for the duration of the drive. (I don’t think I ever had it happen a second time on a drive.)
In stark contrast, all sorts of conditions can make radar-less Tesla Vision AP unusable in my car now, either by causing AP to cut out completely or by limiting the top speed well below the speed limit. Heavy rain. Sleet. Sometimes light rain at night under streetlights on the highway when cars ahead of me are kicking up mists of dirty water. Driving into bright sun (especially so in really cold temps when I’m guessing condensation issues can arise, but also in dry temperate conditions if the sun is low enough).
In my experience, there’s absolutely no comparison. Tesla Vision has caused a huge degradation in capabilities and performance of AP in my vehicle.
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