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Radar Support

2759 Views 45 Replies 14 Participants Last post by  WylieECoyote
My Model Y came with radar. As a safety engineer using multiple sensors, e.g. radar and sight, adds redundancy and, therefore, safety. The Y no longer comes with radar. Question: Is radar still used as part of the driver safety systems (FSD, Autosteer, speed control, etc.) and still supported with updates as the software becomes more sophisticated?
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I don't remember seeing that patch note - plus my car can still go all the way down to 1 in following distance. So maybe that's limited by a certain year or HW3?
I hadn’t realized it until just now, but yeah, it looks like vehicles with HW2.5 were not switched to Tesla Vision and therefore probably still have their radar enabled. Jealous! :p

Do you have a link to confirm this?

I haven’t gotten the V11 update yet, but I haven’t seen any reporting suggesting that the speed and following distance limitations with Tesla Vision have changed. And some websites with details about the release notes (like this one) still specifically mention the 85mph top speed and 2-7 following distance.


That would be news to me. Unless you’re talking the most recent V11, that definitely hasn’t been the case in my car.
I saw it in one of the release notes at one of the sites. But I can tell you from experience with 2 cars with the update, it ain't there anymore, replaced with the driving mode when you push the right button left or right.
I saw it in one of the release notes at one of the sites. But I can tell you from experience with 2 cars with the update, it ain't there anymore, replaced with the driving mode when you push the right button left or right.
That’s with FSD Beta running, correct?

I’m more interested in how it works with Autopilot when FSD Bets is not turned on in the settings.
I don't remember seeing that patch note - plus my car can still go all the way down to 1 in following distance. So maybe that's limited by a certain year or HW3?
Perhaps, I am missing something, but I have NEVER SEEN a patch note that discusses anything but things Tesla is adding or improvements they are making that are not necessarily required. The notes never show anything associated with a "recall" or reducing features. I have a 2021 Y that came with radar. As far as I can recall, the only way I knew radar had been rendered useless was reading about it here or in the media.

I love my Y, but I do not like that features that came with it as original functions of the car are rendered useless by the vicissitudes of the mind of Musk.
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Perhaps, I am missing something, but I have NEVER SEEN a patch note that discusses anything but things Tesla is adding or improvements they are making that are not necessarily required. The notes never show anything associated with a "recall" or reducing features. I have a 2021 Y that came with radar. As far as I can recall, the only way I knew radar had been rendered useless was reading about it here or in the media.

I love my Y, but I do not like that features that came with it as original functions of the car are rendered useless by the vicissitudes of the mind of Musk.
You definitely haven't read the latest updates then.
That’s with FSD Beta running, correct?

I’m more interested in how it works with Autopilot when FSD Bets is not turned on in the settings.
Would not expect there to be a difference.
Would not expect there to be a difference.
There is a difference between FSD Beta 11.3.4, 11.3.3 and Just the Full FSD. There are some things I didn't like on 11.3.4.
Perhaps, I am missing something, but I have NEVER SEEN a patch note that discusses anything but things Tesla is adding or improvements they are making that are not necessarily required.
Well, you're not going to find a patch note that says "removed radar". Radar was deactivated in 2022.20.9. This was the relevant release note:

2022.20.9 Release Notes:

Speed Assist (S3XY with radar)​
Your vehicle is now running Tesla Vision! It will rely on camera vision coupled with neural net processing to deliver certain Autopilot and active safety features. Vehicles using Tesla Vision have received top safety ratings, and fleet data shows that it provides overall enhanced safety for our customers. Note that, with Tesla Vision, available following distance settings are from 2-7 and Autosteer top speed is 85 mph (140 km/h).​
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Would not expect there to be a difference.
From: FSD Beta 11.3.5 (2022.45.14) Official Tesla Release Notes - Software Updates

Tilting the right scroll wheel left/right will now adjust the FSD Profile from Chill to Average to Assertive.

This is the same profile that shows up in the Controls > Autopilot menu.

Before FSD Beta was enabled on the highway, the right scroll wheel would adjust the follow distance from 2 to 7.”


But, presumably, if you have FSD beta disabled in the settings and are running regular Autopilot instead, you’ll still have the ability to adjust following distance.
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RADAR does not do what a lot of people think it does. It sends out a radio signal and gets a reply after it bounces off of something. Police RADAR uses the same concept - I have one. It picks up objects moving Parallel to the antenna. While the Tesla is moving, it receives the strongest signal from the background reflecting the signal and that is the Tesla's speed. When it picks up a weaker signal, it is an object parallel to the antenna and they are subtracted yielding a "closing speed" between the 2 vehicles. All is good if the other car is moving parallel. When the other car is moving perpendicular or stopped directly in front of the antenna, it cannot distinguish it from the background since there is no "relative motion" to the Tesla. All RADAR works by relative motion in relation to the antenna. If the car were slowing directly toward, parallel, it will pick it up until the relative motion reaches 0 at which point it disappears into the background.
Only a LIDAR can distinguish an object in front from the background to augment the vision system. Ultrasonic sensors don't have the range to help with vehicles in the path with enough distance to act upon the information.
I hope people understand RADAR a little better.
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I hope people understand RADAR a little better.
But if the radar is made directional as well, like doppler, wouldn’t it be able to tell that “ground clutter” (a stationary object) is getting closer to the car straight ahead? That might be what the upgraded radar units are for, to be able to do directional ranging.

By the way, your description is good, and the reason, I read, why weather detection was switched to doppler radar - because doppler is positional, it can see individual cells in a storm and how tall they are, and how fast they are going, even if buildings are in the way.
But if the radar is made directional as well, like doppler, wouldn’t it be able to tell that “ground clutter” (a stationary object) is getting closer to the car straight ahead? That might be what the upgraded radar units are for, to be able to do directional ranging.

By the way, your description is good, and the reason, I read, why weather detection was switched to doppler radar - because doppler is positional, it can see individual cells in a storm and how tall they are, and how fast they are going, even if buildings are in the way.
A doppler radar can detect and differentiate an object that is moving relative to ground clutter but only if the movement is along the radar line of sight. If the object is moving perpendicular to the radar line of sight, the object blends into the ground clutter and the radar will not be able to distinguish the object from the ground.

A doppler radar doesn’t directly measure direction but instead measures speed of an object along the line of sight. It's useful in detecting weather because weather often moves relative to the ground so a doppler radar can differentiate weather from the ground or other stationary objects.
A doppler radar doesn’t directly measure direction but instead measures speed of an object along the line of sight. It's useful in detecting weather because weather often moves relative to the ground so a doppler radar can differentiate weather from the ground or other stationary objects.
Yes, sorry, I should have said positional and not directional. It’s still early here. :) Where that might be useful in a car is if it can tell that the “ground clutter” it’s seeing is directly ahead, and is getting closer quickly.

This is where Elon might be right though, and vision might be more suitable. It might be easier to have the vision system detect that something is ahead, and it’s closing fast, and it does not seem to be “turning away” (moving to the right or left of the vision area) so it must be a stationary obstruction. That still might be difficult in some situations though, like inclement weather or entering/exiting a tunnel or underpass. Even humans have trouble distinguishing stationary objects there.

Example - there is a youtube video of this highway camera someplace that has a highway exit that ends up under an underpass, and then exits that underpass directly into a very slight curve. It’s just enough to cause numerous crashes there (that’s why it’s on youtube) because people don’t fully comprehend the slight curve until they come out of the underpass.
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A doppler radar can detect and differentiate an object that is moving relative to ground clutter but only if the movement is along the radar line of sight. If the object is moving perpendicular to the radar line of sight, the object blends into the ground clutter and the radar will not be able to distinguish the object from the ground.

A doppler radar doesn’t directly measure direction but instead measures speed of an object along the line of sight. It's useful in detecting weather because weather often moves relative to the ground so a doppler radar can differentiate weather from the ground or other stationary objects.
Thank you, I taught this during my younger days as a police officer. These factors are important for officers to understand when using moving RADAR so the reading is accurate - primary of which is to confirm the patrol car speed on the display matches that of the patrol car speedometer so that the target "closing speed" is calculated properly.
Doppler is a different beast. It is considerably more expensive, but innovations are always coming. I cannot imagine the price of it being practical for cars. They are usually mounted stationary. I know the military has high end RADAR in planes, but both planes are always moving.
Texas Instruments has recently released white papers on mmRADAR for the auto segment.
I could not find the patent for Tesla's, but the FCC filing has some information.

Here is the "Parallel Processing System" patent Tesla recently filed filed:
"Detected object path prediction for vision-based systems" Patent:
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All I can say is I've had plenty of phantom braking incidents and plenty of NOA/FSD just giving up before and after the radar (ultrasonics?) input got removed from the decision tree. Considering I drive less than 7k miles/year, the ratio still leaves me pining for the option to use dumb cruise control; especially with passengers on board. Took a long road trip (by myself) just before the highway FSD update and, while I didn't experience much PB, the number of times it gave up completely or incorrectly reduced the speed due to conditions (as well as running dry wipers during the day and no wipers in torrential downpours at night) left me seriously annoyed and fatigued.

While I don't think PB makes us more vulnerable to getting rear ended, it certainly could play a contributing factor along with those fairly unimpressive brake lights on the Model 3.
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Thank you, I taught this during my younger days as a police officer. These factors are important for officers to understand when using moving RADAR so the reading is accurate - primary of which is to confirm the patrol car speed on the display matches that of the patrol car speedometer so that the target "closing speed" is calculated properly.
Doppler is a different beast. It is considerably more expensive, but innovations are always coming. I cannot imagine the price of it being practical for cars. They are usually mounted stationary. I know the military has high end RADAR in planes, but both planes are always moving.
My pleasure. My entire career was in the aerospace industry working on radar systems for fighter and reconnaissance aircraft. Doppler was one of the fundamental measurements made by our systems. The radar systems know the speed at which the aircraft is flying and remove the aircraft speed from the detected object's (aircraft or ground vehicle) speed to get its ground speed along the line of sight. They can also estimate the object’s actual velocity (speed and direction) by tracking the object and observing its positional changes over time. This gives a rough estimate of speed in the direction perpendicular to the line of sight but not as accurate and instantaneous as a doppler measurement of speed along the line of sight.
All I can say is I've had plenty of phantom braking incidents and plenty of NOA/FSD just giving up before and after the radar (ultrasonics?) input got removed from the decision tree...
Yeah, that was the radar contributing to the phantom braking. Ultrasonics only work at a very short distance, like detecting the distance to nearby objects as you pull into a parking spot. The Hardware 4 (Phoenix) radar Elon has referred to is supposed to solve phantom braking issues by using a higher resolution to detect objects.
First look at Tesla's Hardware 4 radar unit
Yeah, that was the radar contributing to the phantom braking. Ultrasonics only work at a very short distance, like detecting the distance to nearby objects as you pull into a parking spot. The Hardware 4 (Phoenix) radar Elon has referred to is supposed to solve phantom braking issues by using a higher resolution to detect objects.
First look at Tesla's Hardware 4 radar unit
Yeah, sorry for introducing the red herring of ultrasonics. That was intended to mean I don’t know which firmware update has/had disabled each or if I still have one or both working on my 2018.

Regardless, I’ve seen no change in behavior so am either commending Tesla for smoothly transitioning away from non-visual sensors or complaining that they’ve yet to resolve PB and weather related system failures while refusing to give users choice of automation level (regarding speed control).
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All RADAR works by relative motion in relation to the antenna. If the car were slowing directly toward, parallel, it will pick it up until the relative motion reaches 0 at which point it disappears into the background.
Actually, RADAR does not work by relative motion in relation to the antenna. It works based on relative DISTANCE from the antenna. RADAR stands for Radio Detection And Ranging. It works by sending out electromagnetic pulses in the microwave frequency range. These pulses bounce back in the direction they came when they strike an object. Radar measures the time it takes for those frequencies to return to the antenna after it emits a pulse. Since the speed the pulse moves through the air is known, the longer it takes for a return, the farther away the object is that bounced the signal back. The object does not have to be moving, nor does the radar transmitter. Here's a couple of photographs I took from the back of a boat in heavy fog. The first picture is what the naked eye saw in the heavy fog. The second picture is what the radar saw looking in the same direction at the same time as the first picture was taken. Each red "blob" is a boat at anchor. Look closely and you'll see a 2nd small blob behind or to the side of some of the large blobs. That's the anchored boat's dinghy tethered to the boat. The boat with the dinghy behind the flag is about 75' away (.014 mi). All the boats were at anchor, as was the vessel I was on so there was no relative motion.

Water Flag Mode of transport Liquid Vehicle



Here's the radar image looking in the same direction using a 1/8th mile (.125 mi.) scale.

Human body Organism Slope Terrestrial plant Font


Here's the same image on a 1/4th (.25 mi.) mile scale. The blank area to the left is the ships channel where no boats are anchored:

Light Green Rectangle Font Line



This is why I think radar is useful on a vehicle when driving in fog or heavy rain. Some would say you're crazy to be driving in conditions where you can't see more than 100' or so and I'd agree. I've pulled off the interstate several times because it was raining so hard I couldn't see the cars in front of me only to be passed repeatedly by cars (and trucks) going 70+ mph! Obviously there are a lot of folks out there who will drive in these conditions, probably made worse if they think they're got a full self-driving car!
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Actually, RADAR does not work by relative motion in relation to the antenna. It works based on relative DISTANCE from the antenna. RADAR stands for Radio Detection And Ranging. It works by sending out electromagnetic pulses in the microwave frequency range. These pulses bounce back in the direction they came when they strike an object. Radar measures the time it takes for those frequencies to return to the antenna after it emits a pulse. Since the speed the pulse moves through the air is known, the longer it takes for a return, the farther away the object is that bounced the signal back. The object does not have to be moving, nor does the radar transmitter. Here's a couple of photographs I took from the back of a boat in heavy fog. The first picture is what the naked eye saw in the heavy fog. The second picture is what the radar saw looking in the same direction at the same time as the first picture was taken. Each red "blob" is a boat at anchor. Look closely and you'll see a 2nd small blob behind or to the side of some of the large blobs. That's the anchored boat's dinghy tethered to the boat. The boat with the dinghy behind the flag is about 75' away (.014 mi). All the boats were at anchor, as was the vessel I was on so there was no relative motion.

View attachment 47995


Here's the radar image looking in the same direction using a 1/8th mile (.125 mi.) scale.

View attachment 47997

Here's the same image on a 1/4th (.25 mi.) mile scale. The blank area to the left is the ships channel where no boats are anchored:

View attachment 47998


This is why I think radar is useful on a vehicle when driving in fog or heavy rain. Some would say you're crazy to be driving in conditions where you can't see more than 100' or so and I'd agree. I've pulled off the interstate several times because it was raining so hard I couldn't see the cars in front of me only to be passed repeatedly by cars (and trucks) going 70+ mph! Obviously there are a lot of folks out there who will drive in these conditions, probably made worse if they think they're got a full self-driving car!
I was being over simplistic in the explanation, not wanting to get into the weeds. Tesla folks are well above average so I should have been more precise.
You are correct based on the type of RADAR you are using. More than likely it is Doppler RADAR, which is about 100x the price of automotive RADAR. Most entry level boat RADAR is about $2500.
It is entirely possible there have been innovations since I was teaching that specific type. All of the automotive models I have used (Acura and Mercedes) all drop out at about 5-10 MPH.
The Texas Instruments model just patented comes in at $24 so I don't expect anything spectacular.
I sure hope you are right and it does have this capability!
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