The disinformation campaign continues

Joe90 · 2023-05-05

Biden Is Forcing Electric Vehicles on the American Public While Misrepresenting Their Efficiency https://www.instituteforenergyresearch.org/regulation/biden-is-forcing-electric-vehicles-on-the-american-public-while-misrepresenting-their-efficiency/

garsh

· #81 · 16 d ago

Dfwatt said:
You'd be the last to know as you appear to know no actual science.... because you're not about real science or real information.

Please don't post personal attacks on this forum.

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JasonF

· #82 · 16 d ago

Subpar said:
Fair point, but is the reduction in tailpipe emissions offset by an increase in emissions from mining and manufacturing?

That's an irrelevant question at this point. If you break up pollution reduction into steps, step 1 is centralizing the causes of pollution, because it's easier to change 1 thing than it is to change 1 million things. Then you change that one thing.

SalisburySam said:
Now you’ve gone and spoiled the fun. Just what are you thinking?

Just what I said in the above paragraph: Step 1 is centralize the causes of pollution so it can be changed more easily later on.

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JasonF

· #83 · 16 d ago

Dfwatt said:
OMG. A paid lobbyist drawing a salary from a fossil fuel executive is not a "commentator". Additionally it is not "impuning their motives" to suggest that they're biased and simply operating at the behest of the folks paying their salary - how is that a discrediting statement?

Remember that there are actually two separate groups who oppose EV's.

One is composed of oil lobbyists, manufacturer groups, and politicians (usually being lobbied by oil) who want to keep the world hopelessly addicted to oil, and consider any change to that a threat (that includes hybrids and more efficient vehicles!). They make the case that EV's are as bad or worse for the environment than gas, and since gas cars are cheaper, there is no need for EV's. And they also throw in stuff about them being fire hazards, and heavier than the heaviest trucks, etc.

The other group would prefer if we do without personal cars at all, and make the case that any kind of car does not fully solve all environmental problems. They don't prefer gas over electric, they believe that both are just as bad, and we're better off putting money and energy into shared transport and walkable cities. They tend to borrow a lot of the same phrasing as pro-oil because it's convenient to make their point, though it does muddy the difference between them.

I'm pointing this out because especially on this forum, you might be speaking to someone in the 2nd group and not the first. Don't always assume someone who is anti-EV is pro oil.

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francoisp

· #84 · 16 d ago (Edited)

JasonF said:
The other group would prefer if we do without personal cars at all, and make the case that any kind of car does not fully solve all environmental problems. They don't prefer gas over electric, they believe that both are just as bad, and we're better off putting money and energy into shared transport and walkable cities. They tend to borrow a lot of the same phrasing as pro-oil because it's convenient to make their point, though it does muddy the difference between them.

You've mentioned this multiple times but that's not my experience at all and I do read quite a bit about EVs. I'm sure these people can be found somewhere but they've got to be a very small minority compared to the "ICE matters" group.

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JasonF

· #85 · 16 d ago

francoisp said:
You've mentioned this multiple times but that's not my experience at all and I do read quite a bit about EVs. I'm sure these people can be found somewhere but they've got to be a very small minority compared to the "ICE matters" group.

The second group isn't very vocal. You see them pop up from time to time in Ars Technica articles - they're not aggressive, they're more like "it's a shame we're going to have even more cars and not walkable cities". They tend to emphasize the negatives of electric production not being clean, and that EV's still use oils and leave tire reside everywhere.

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francoisp

· #86 · 16 d ago

JasonF said:
The second group isn't very vocal. You see them pop up from time to time in Ars Technica articles - they're not aggressive, they're more like "it's a shame we're going to have even more cars and not walkable cities". They tend to emphasize the negatives of electric production not being clean, and that EV's still use oils and leave tire reside everywhere.

Honestly I think these people are plants from the oil industry, hired to sow doubts in the mind of people who are considering switching to electric vehicles for environmental reasons. This is similar to the rebuttal studies over climate change trying to confuse the issues in the public mind.

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chicagobob123

· #87 · 16 d ago

JasonF said:
Just what I said in the above paragraph: Step 1 is centralize the causes of pollution so it can be changed more easily later on.

Just looked this up, there are 11,925 utility-scale electric power plants. Personally I would rather figure out a way to resolve the existing pollution issues for those plants 11.925 problems than try to fix the 290.8 million car pollution problems. Seems like Tesla has a huge room for growth.
Kidding aside many of these issues can be resolved. Either by Solar or wind or nuclear, there exists a much cleaner solutions to what we are doing now and we should get out of our own way and just do them. Elon stated with a square mile of batteries and 100 square miles of desert there would be enough power for the entire county. Think about that for a moment. What would that cost about 10 billion? Maybe.. Another 10 billion for ways to transportation energy for use. We are so lucky to have land and room for such a thing.

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A

Alfie

· #88 · 13 d ago

francoisp said:
Honestly I think these people are plants from the oil industry, hired to sow doubts in the mind of people who are considering switching to electric vehicles for environmental reasons. This is similar to the rebuttal studies over climate change trying to confuse the issues in the public mind.

I have 2 ICE, 1 hybrid and now a full EV. ICE people have closed mind just like some people in this forum as well. I love the tech and efficiency of the EV just as I love the sound of ICE engine humming. I rarely use ICE now, but being that they are Alfa Romeo and BMW, it just makes me feel better to use the brakes when stopping and the roar of the engines when you step on the gas. This isn't about EV people or ICE people. This is about saving the planet for our children. If you believe EV is the only way, then you will be left behind. EV has its time, and now is the that time. Soon or later, the tech will advance. If you think we're doing everything so smart, look at this article https://www.npr.org/2022/08/03/1114964240/new-battery-technology-china-vanadium

GM held off fuel injectors in 50's but bought out the patent so no one can produce it. Here we are, people with closed minds, fighting for lithium batteries while there are other options. Search new batteries, simple fusion, alternate fuels in google search and learn. Get off the high horse you're are on now since "later" maybe too late for our grand childrens' generations.

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Alfie

· #89 · 13 d ago

shareef777 said:
It's not possible for it to be pollution free, the C in ICE stands for combustion (ie, burning). You're better off waiting for unicorns to exist 😂.

wow... amazing how narrow your mind is. hydrogen gas combustion is zero emission and it creates water! imagine that. Maybe your unicorn is there but you simply refuse to see it?

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chicagobob123

· #90 · 13 d ago

->ICE people have closed mind just like some people in this forum as well.<- Ahhh Cmon, that seems harsh. Most people are afraid of new things, others wait for a bit then jump in. Others will never change.
I am a sort of an ice person with an EV. Now I am trying my best to convert other gas burners to EV's giving them test rides and just telling them about the car. Instead of liking the roar and vibration, I like quiet and unrelenting acceleration of the EV. The roar reminds me of the thousands of parts that have to remain operational to keep the ICE thing working. Spark plugs, spark plug cables, timing module, distributor, fuel injectors, springs in valves, valve seats, belts, alternator, belt tensioners, water pump, transmission with magic inside to change gears. A cost and maintenance nightmare. Having owned over a dozen cars and driven most to their death after repairing them several times its amazing the ICE cars last as long as it does. Now something better has come along, EV. I am in love with the quiet and relentless acceleration of the Tesla, and I have the slowest one. It beats my 530i, which is gone now, but the BMW's suspension was better than the Tesla's. I may swap the shocks to get a softer ride, more like a highway cruiser, which is mostly what I do anyway. I liked old Buicks for that reason. soft suspension good power and comfort. Did I mention I miss bench seats. (Geez I'm getting old)

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shareef777

· #91 · 13 d ago

Alfie said:
wow... amazing how narrow your mind is. hydrogen gas combustion is zero emission and it creates water! imagine that. Maybe your unicorn is there but you simply refuse to see it?

Standard nomenclature uses ICE to refer to GAS based vehicles. HFCV (hydrogen fuel cell vehicle) refers to hydrogen powered vehicles, but go on and continue to espouse your wisdom while talking down to everyone

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JasonF

· #92 · 13 d ago

Alfie said:
If you believe EV is the only way, then you will be left behind. EV has its time, and now is the that time. Soon or later, the tech will advance.

Electricity is the simplest technology that we know how to control, and also the first that humans discovered how to control (electric motors pre-date the internal combustion engine!). The problem has always been delivery - I remember reading magazines from the late 1980's talking about electric vehicles being powered by induction coils buried under the roadways.

Right now, the best method of power delivery to electric vehicles is a battery. I think that will evolve through several different chemistries over time, and possibly be replaced entirely by super-capacitors at some point that can be charged in an instant. In either case, the future seems to be leaning toward either solid state power delivery, or chemical reaction power delivery, with the actual drive unit actually being electric.

I think internal combustion is coming to the end of its life, simply because of the sheer complexity of it. If modern technology is used to completely re-do a gas powered vehicle, I think it would end up looking more like hydrogen fuel cell electric instead. An internal combustion engine should be more expensive to produce than an electric drive system just due to the volume of parts and complexity of assembly, but it's not quite yet because EV drive systems haven't fully hit economy of scale yet.

And transitioning away from mostly internal combustion is important because right now any rogue state with the smallest amount of oil production has outsized control over our daily lives. And because no matter what you believe about climate change, walking by a street full of running cars on a hot day is a miserable experience that's definitely not good for your lungs. Imagine what a lifetime of that exposure does, and how much healthier outdoors would be without it.

Alfie said:
GM held off fuel injectors in 50's but bought out the patent so no one can produce it. Here we are, people with closed minds, fighting for lithium batteries while there are other options. Search new batteries, simple fusion, alternate fuels in google search and learn. Get off the high horse you're are on now since "later" maybe too late for our grand childrens' generations.

This is a common thing that companies to: Patent something because someone came up with the design of it, to make sure they get early exclusivity for it. But then, at first, it's usually astronomically expensive to do more than just experiment with it, so they put it on the shelf until technology improves.

Right now that's what's going on with alternative battery technology, and even supercapacitors. They are incredibly expensive to either build or to source right now, so we're still using lithium batteries. The truth is always that what we see as cutting edge in consumer products is already on the verge of becoming obsolete - it's being used because at that point in its life cycle, it's becoming very cheap to produce.

I think as we see LFP and sodium batteries rise, lithium nickel cobalt or lithium polymer batteries will dominate simply because the build price will drop to half of what it is now.

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francoisp

· #93 · 13 d ago

shareef777 said:
Standard nomenclature uses ICE to refer to GAS based vehicles. HFCV (hydrogen fuel cell vehicle) refers to hydrogen powered vehicles, but go on and continue to espouse your wisdom while talking down to everyone

@Alfie is correct in pointing out that there's an engine category that doesn't not use a fuel cell to generate electricity and instead burns hydrogen in a cylinder like it's done for a fossil fuel. This technology is totally inefficient for cars but it exists.

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shareef777

· #94 · 13 d ago

francoisp said:
@Alfie is correct in pointing out that there's an engine category that doesn't not use a fuel cell to generate electricity and instead burns hydrogen in a cylinder like it's done for a fossil fuel. This technology is totally inefficient for cars but it exists.

Where can I buy one of those!?

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francoisp

· #95 · 13 d ago (Edited)

shareef777 said:
Where can I buy one of those!?

This engine is a diesel hybrid but there's one that's pure hydrogen (see post below).

Not an EV! Check Out Mercedes’ Zero-Emission Unimog—Powered by Hydrogen

Mercedes-Benz thinks some vehicles just aren’t suited to the EV mold. This Unimog, for instance, features a hydrogen combustion and diesel engine. Here's why Mercedes is exploring this technology.

www.autoweek.com

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francoisp

· #96 · 13 d ago

shareef777 said:
Where can I buy one of those!?

Here's a combustion engine that's pure hydrogen.

This Hydrogen Combustion Engine Is The EV Alternative We’ve Been Waiting for - HotCars - Hydrogen Central

This hydrogen combustion engine is the EV alternative we’ve been waiting for - hotcars. JCB’s newly-developed hydrogen-powered internal

hydrogen-central.com

And one from BMW:

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Alfie

· #97 · 13 d ago

here are couple other links: Largest commercially operated engine runs on hydrogen in world first and Rolls-Royce successfully tests mtu engines with pure hydrogen

I like the idea of natural gas blend with hydrogen as well.. We'll see what's most affordable to consumers and most feasible.

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francoisp

· #98 · 13 d ago

Alfie said:
here are couple other links: Largest commercially operated engine runs on hydrogen in world first and Rolls-Royce successfully tests mtu engines with pure hydrogen

I like the idea of natural gas blend with hydrogen as well.. We'll see what's most affordable to consumers and most feasible.

The problem with hydrogen is that unless there's an abundance of extra electricity that would be otherwise wasted, making hydrogen to power an engine is very inefficient for cars. "Well to wheels" efficiency for a fuel cell is less than 40% and it's even worse for a combustion engine. And there's no regen capability for those engines without an additional battery pack. It's much better to use batteries which efficiency stands near 90%.

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chicagobob123

· #99 · 13 d ago

? natural gas blend with hydrogen? Even hydrogen lacks support. No one is building hydrogen stations all over the country to fill those cars. It would take a decade for this support not to mention a world that would need to support this. There are other issues in the various temperatures. So hydrogen is maybe 20 years from being usable at scale if stations would be added over the entire country starting today. Battery chemistry is slow to create and get production ready, but we have a few thats usable, as many makers have shown. I like the sodium battery or silicon battery and think they are great, but how long to scale, five years, if ever? Do these new versions perform better, have a much lower cost, better energy density, reduced cost due to better temperature characteristics. So far for electric lfp or lmc does the job and are starting to reach cost parity with ICE.

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francoisp

· #100 · 13 d ago

chicagobob123 said:
? natural gas blend with hydrogen? Even hydrogen lacks support. No one is building hydrogen stations all over the country to fill those cars. It would take a decade for this support not to mention a world that would need to support this. There are other issues in the various temperatures. So hydrogen is years from being usable at scale.
Battery chemistry is slow to create and get production ready, but we have a few thats usable, as many makers have shown. I like the sodium battery or silicon battery and think they are great, but how long to scale, five years, if ever? Do these new versions perform better, have a much lower cost, better energy density, reduced cost due to better temperature characteristics. So far for electric lfp or lmc does the job and are starting to reach cost parity with ICE.

Sodium ion battery is a reality. It's already being used in China. The current power density is lower than LFP's and LMC's but equivalent to what Tesla was using early on. CATL says that their upcoming sodium-ion batteries, with improved energy density surpassing 200 Wh/kg, will commence mass production by 2023. We'll see if that'll come to fruition.

EV powered by sodium ion battery shown in China - Just Auto

Sodium ion is emerging as a key battery technology with significant cost, safety and sustainability benefits

www.just-auto.com

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