[skygraff]

So, I'm a vegetarian and the vegan move sounds good and I'm also an environmentalist so it's good from the standpoint of grazing lands, methane, etc. That being said, from an environmentalist point of view, I'm curious whether the man-made materials are petroleum based or some other unsustainable which might undermine the intent.

I've seen some really good bamboo, other grass, and seaweed based fabrics but I don't think I've seen a leather like material (other than suede texture) from plant sources.

Anyone know what the raw materials are?

(really glad to hear white isn't the only option for vegan anymore - especially if it's sustainable)

 

[Michael Russo]

I tend to be on @MelindaV 's camp on this one, preferring good quality leather and not sure whether on full lifecycle analysis basis the 'vegan' option is so much more advisable...
I do respect though that some may like the idea of an animal-friendly alternative solution...

The main problem I have with going for a vegan seat is that it always makes me want to say 'have a nice meal'... !

 

[Kizzy]

I'm concerned about the steering wheel. As a vegan, I do not want leather anywhere. If all there wheels are leather unless someone makes a fuss, will opting for other material an option for mass market Model 3 buyers?

 

[garsh]

I'm curious whether the man-made materials are petroleum based or some other unsustainable which might undermine the intent.

I'll put forward that:

1. Using petroleum to make plastics and other non-combustion products means that we're not releasing that carbon into the atmosphere. The carbon remains locked up, and from that standpoint, is not hurting the environment.
2. Removing all/most combustable uses of petroleum means that the remaining amount will last much, much longer.
3. If petroleum sources become scarce enough, then recycling plastics would become economically preferred.
4. Even burying plastics in landfills is environmentally fine - the hydrocarbons once again become locked up underground.

There's my strawman. Go ahead and poke some holes in it.

 

[Thomas Mikl]

Honestly I do not care about the seats as long as the quality is good.
Many seat materials for premium brands are actually made very close to me by a company called Boxmark (google it)...
From what I have seen: Leather is total crap if you do not use really good leather and in a thick layer, sometimes they even put the leather on top of Cordura for very premium stuff.
Fake leather is total crap until you get to something called "Artico" (might be a brand name) which you can even find in a Mercedes S class etc. and has nothing to do with vinyl. In many cases it is not made from petroleum/oil but from Canola oil. They even make extremely high quality and durable seats from grasses, canola and hemp (they type you cannot smoke). They let me poke with a knife at those it will not give and they have even request from law enforcement to make vests from that stuff.

So I would just relax and lets see what is coming...

 

[MelindaV]

So, I'm a vegetarian and the vegan move sounds good and I'm also an environmentalist so it's good from the standpoint of grazing lands, methane, etc. That being said, from an environmentalist point of view, I'm curious whether the man-made materials are petroleum based or some other unsustainable which might undermine the intent.

I've seen some really good bamboo, other grass, and seaweed based fabrics but I don't think I've seen a leather like material (other than suede texture) from plant sources.

Anyone know what the raw materials are?

(really glad to hear white isn't the only option for vegan anymore - especially if it's sustainable)

Tesla has not commented on the vegan material's environmental impact - owners asked when the white first came out with no (public) response.
I fully expect this decision was made purely on the economics of it over leather and had nothing to do with the sustainability or environmental impact of one over the other.

 

[Iaeen]

I'll put forward that:

1. Using petroleum to make plastics and other non-combustion products means that we're not releasing that carbon into the atmosphere. The carbon remains locked up, and from that standpoint, is not hurting the environment.
2. Removing all/most combustable uses of petroleum means that the remaining amount will last much, much longer.
3. If petroleum sources become scarce enough, then recycling plastics would become economically preferred.
4. Even burying plastics in landfills is environmentally fine - the hydrocarbons once again become locked up underground.

There's my strawman. Go ahead and poke some holes in it.

Unfortunately for points 1 and 2, that's not how it works. Crude oil is a mix of many different types of hydrocarbons, and most of what we do is just unmix them. Octanes and kerosene don't polymerize, so if we remove the ICE use case, they will just become waste products as long as we are dependent on petroleum.

It's like saying if everyone stopped eating steak, we would have more of the cow left over to make leather. Doesn't work like that since the parts of the cow that get turned into leather are different from the parts that get turned into steak.

I hope point 3 would work out, but the realist in me says we need to either develop useful polymers that are derived from renewable sources or we need to go back to natural materials for building things.

 

[ModFather]

So, I'm a vegetarian and the vegan move sounds good and I'm also an environmentalist so it's good from the standpoint of grazing lands, methane, etc. That being said, from an environmentalist point of view, I'm curious whether the man-made materials are petroleum based or some other unsustainable which might undermine the intent.

I've seen some really good bamboo, other grass, and seaweed based fabrics but I don't think I've seen a leather like material (other than suede texture) from plant sources.

Anyone know what the raw materials are?

(really glad to hear white isn't the only option for vegan anymore - especially if it's sustainable)

IT'S COMPLICATED.

"Vegan" simply means the material is not made from animal based products PERIOD. Now here is where it gets tricky. Vegan material can be made from hemp, bamboo, pineapple leaves to petroleum based products. Usually an auto manufacturer doesn't state which alternative vegan material they are using. But there are a couple of clues. Alcantara is a brand name of vegan material that simulates the look and feel of suede. This is what TESLA uses for part of their interiors. Alcantara is made from polyester and polyurethane so that material is petroleum based. If TESLA is okay with using Alcantara on some of their interior surfaces then i presume they are okay with using petroleum based products on the rest of their interior surfaces. So to answer your question, many if not all of TESLA interior products are probably petroleum based.

Okay, why not option a cloth interior if offered? Same problem, most cloth interior materials for automotive use (and even residential use) are likely to be a blend of petroleum based products for longevity, durability, and cleanability.

@skygraff I share your philosophy and concerns. I can't think of anyone on this Forum who has been harder on the petroleum industry than I. But I look at it this way. The struggle against big oil is a continuum. It is not an all or nothing struggle. In my opinion, the first thing we have to accomplish is end the practice of using petroleum based products to power our vehicles. Gasoline and diesel to power our cars is one of the worst offenders for releasing hydrocarbons into the atmosphere we breathe. It is the source of health issues. environmental poisoning, and geopolitical problems. On July 28, 2017 the revolution that turns the EV movement from a campfire into a worldwide conflagration begins! And you and I are part of that revolution. I get all chicken skin just thinking about it! Once that domino tumbles we can then take our revolution to other issues like seating and clothing materials for commercial and personal use. In the meantime, I don't feel too guilty about sitting on a petroleum based 'vegan' material in my new new TESLA 3. I'll work on that domino later, down the road.

@skygraff enjoy your new TESLA 3 even though it may not be 100% perfect from an environmental standpoint, it is one small step for you, but a giant leap forward for mankind. I thank you, your children thank you, your grandchildren thank you for doing your part in the revolution.

PEACE OUT

 

[Thomas Mikl]

ModFather a few things:
Alcantara is just one type of so called micro-suede and people tend to call all micro-suede materials Alcantara, which does not mean it really is. There are tons of alternatives, while prolly 80% of them are very similarly made from oil, there are other options from plant based sources.
Longevity, durability and cleanability has ZERO to do what the source material is from, but only of quality of composition. I could show you 100% plant based seats and if I did not tell you you would swear to your mother and all is holy that you are sitting on 8mm of the finest cow hide you ever took a seat in.

Now I am not saying Tesla uses that stuff and you are very very likely right they are using the real Alcantara and the rest is also oil based products, as lets face it: Oil is just cheaper and those grass seats while superior in my testing in any way, are just too expensive for a mid priced car, when even some premium car makers are still not using them. All I saw them used in was show car prototypes.
I just do not like generalisation, so I had to point that out

On another note, by sitting on oil based vinyl if you want, you are not loosing that CO2, you are not venting it into the air. As long as the plastic is recycled and not landing in the pacific oceans plastic islands you are not that bad environmentally. The problem with plastic is not the CO2 it is more that too much of it ends up in the oceans...

 

[Michel Zehnder]

The problem with plastic is not the CO2 it is more that too much of it ends up in the oceans...

That's why you should support https://www.theoceancleanup.com/

 

[Thomas Mikl]

That's why you should support https://www.theoceancleanup.com/

I actually do, not financially since I am not that wealthy (or I would drive an X hehe), but I am a Skipper (license grade FB4) and have done some trace work for the Norwegian team they have. So I did spend several holidays for them, which I guess is also valuable. But honestly this year I am going sailing again with the fam

Also the only booze I drink is CO2 neutral, as it is shipped by sailing ship from the carribian to Amsterdam.
http://fairtransport.eu/ships/tres-hombres/

 

[Michel Zehnder]

I actually do, not financially since I am not that wealthy (or I would drive an X hehe), but I am a Skipper (license grade FB4) and have done some trace work for the Norwegian team they have. So I did spend several holidays for them, which I guess is also valuable. But honestly this year I am going sailing again with the fam

Also the only booze I drink is CO2 neutral, as it is shipped by sailing ship from the carribian to Amsterdam.
http://fairtransport.eu/ships/tres-hombres/

Nice!
However you don't have to be wealthy to spend 50-100$ a year for them...

 

[Thomas Mikl]

I agree, however I think the time investment I made is much more valuable...

 

[ModFather]

ModFather a few things:

Tomas I agree and support everything you posted and that's why I posted 'it's complicated.'

We can take comfort in the first mass marketed EV car that is the first step in significantly reducing hydrocarbon emissions from personal transportation. Once the EV concept is fully accepted, we can then work on acceptance of alternative materials for seating, and body parts for personal transportation and we should start now. It is a continuum.

Gracias to everyone for your support of protecting the ocean environment, too! Let's recycle ICE cars to make artificial reefs! Now, that would be ironic!

 

[Badback]

So, I'm a vegetarian and the vegan move sounds good and I'm also an environmentalist so it's good from the standpoint of grazing lands, methane, etc. That being said, from an environmentalist point of view, I'm curious whether the man-made materials are petroleum based or some other unsustainable which might undermine the intent.

I've seen some really good bamboo, other grass, and seaweed based fabrics but I don't think I've seen a leather like material (other than suede texture) from plant sources.

Anyone know what the raw materials are?

(really glad to hear white isn't the only option for vegan anymore - especially if it's sustainable)

If the material is polyurethane: "The main ingredients to make a polyurethane are di- and triisocyanates and polyols." From Wikipedia,

Polyols are a kind of sugar, isocyanates are derived from amonia. No petroleum involved.

Polyurethane is preferable for seat fabric because of its high abrasion resistance, stain resistance and strength.

I don't know what Tesla will use, but polyurethane is my preference. It is colloquially called Plether.

 

[MelindaV]

If the material is polyurethane: "The main ingredients to make a polyurethane are di- and triisocyanates and polyols." From Wikipedia,

Polyols are a kind of sugar, isocyanates are derived from amonia. No petroleum involved.

Polyurethane is preferable for seat fabric because of its high abrasion resistance, stain resistance and strength.

I don't know what Tesla will use, but polyurethane is my preference. It is colloquially called Plether.

to your point, without knowing what is in these, its probably not worth looking up, but most issues in manufacturing poly(fill-in-the-blank) has as much to do with ground water and waste materials going into landfills as emissions. So there may not be petroleum but there are chemicals going back into that factory's community's natural resources and landfills.
Often times, there also can be two very similar end products that are produced with drastically different environmental impacts depending on their factory's processes & procedures.

 

[EVfusion]

I actually do, not financially since I am not that wealthy (or I would drive an X hehe), but I am a Skipper (license grade FB4) and have done some trace work for the Norwegian team they have. So I did spend several holidays for them, which I guess is also valuable. But honestly this year I am going sailing again with the fam

Also the only booze I drink is CO2 neutral, as it is shipped by sailing ship from the carribian to Amsterdam.
http://fairtransport.eu/ships/tres-hombres/

Thanks Thomas - your comments about micro-suede both interesting and informative. The tres-hombres venture sounds both fun and worthwhile.

 

[Badback]

to your point, without knowing what is in these, its probably not worth looking up, but most issues in manufacturing poly(fill-in-the-blank) has as much to do with ground water and waste materials going into landfills as emissions. So there may not be petroleum but there are chemicals going back into that factory's community's natural resources and landfills.
Often times, there also can be two very similar end products that are produced with drastically different environmental impacts depending on their factory's processes & procedures.

Not nearly as bad as real leather production.

 

[carpeter]

So, I'm a vegetarian and the vegan move sounds good and I'm also an environmentalist so it's good from the standpoint of grazing lands, methane, etc.

That being said, from an environmentalist point of view, I'm curious whether the man-made materials are petroleum based or some other unsustainable which might undermine the intent.

I've seen some really good bamboo, other grass, and seaweed based fabrics but I don't think I've seen a leather like material (other than suede texture) from plant sources. I'm particularly concerned about keeping the leather clean, but there are good service providers for that.

Anyone know what the raw materials are?

(really glad to hear white isn't the only option for vegan anymore - especially if it's sustainable)

Real leather is not good for the environment or the animal, there's a lot of waste and if you look at the production in SEA countries the workers have a shortened lifespan due to the exposure.

Vegan leather can actually be less prone to cracking and tears since being a synthetic material it can be manufactured in a certain way to be much more sturdy.