[Ed Woodrick]

I always recommend EV owners get a Wall Connector and hardwire it to charge their car at home. It's more robust and has lower risk of fire over time. We are seeing too many fires and melted NEMA 14-50 outlets. Hardwiring is no more difficult than hardwiring a NEMA 15-50 outlet in place.

It's not likely that electric cars are going away anytime soon, and that implies every garage will need convenient and safe charging infrastructure. Now that the NACS standard is moving from the defacto standard to the official standard, it's a no-brainer. Not that it wasn't before.

How many fires have you seen associated with NEMA 14-50 outlets?

 

[ticobird]

I always recommend EV owners get a Wall Connector and hardwire it to charge their car at home.

This is a good suggestion for homeowners especially at this time when in the US there is a 30% tax offset for the equipment and the labor to install it.
From Kiplinger "Essentially, if you install a home EV charging station, the tax credit is 30% of the cost of hardware and installation, up to $1,000."
And don't forget an EV wall connector adds value to the property while also being worth noting in a future property sales description. Besides being just downright more convenient it is safer than plugging in and out repeatedly over time if the outlet is actively shared by an appliance and the Tesla mobile connector. Even the best of these UL approved outlets with professional installation are not designed for this plug - unplug - plug scenario. Also, the added length of an extension cable is definitely not optimal especially if it is routed across or alongside of a walking path.

 

[Ed Woodrick]

This is a good suggestion for homeowners especially at this time when in the US there is a 30% tax offset for the equipment and the labor to install it.
From Kiplinger "Essentially, if you install a home EV charging station, the tax credit is 30% of the cost of hardware and installation, up to $1,000."
And don't forget an EV wall connector adds value to the property while also being worth noting in a future property sales description. Besides being just downright more convenient it is safer than plugging in and out repeatedly over time if the outlet is actively shared by an appliance and the Tesla mobile connector. Even the best of these UL approved outlets with professional installation are not designed for this plug - unplug - plug scenario. Also, the added length of an extension cable is definitely not optimal especially if it is routed across or alongside of a walking path.

Who plugs and unplugs their EVSE from the wall regularly? I believe that most just leave it plugged in. I don't believe that people are generally sharing these plugs.

 

[ticobird]

Who plugs and unplugs their EVSE from the wall regularly?

Those who share an actively used electric dryer like the OP.

 

[dakhlkt22]

I always recommend EV owners get a Wall Connector and hardwire it to charge their car at home. It's more robust and has lower risk of fire over time. We are seeing too many fires and melted NEMA 14-50 outlets. Hardwiring is no more difficult than hardwiring a NEMA 15-50 outlet in place.

It's not likely that electric cars are going away anytime soon, and that implies every garage will need convenient and safe charging infrastructure. Now that the NACS standard is moving from the defacto standard to the official standard, it's a no-brainer. Not that it wasn't before.

Do you work with EVs or you're an electrician? Just curious who "we" is that is seeing this stuff.

 

[ticobird]

Just curious who "we" is that is seeing this stuff.

I'm just a little hesitant to past this Sandy Munro YouTube link because it might become fodder for the EV naysayers but here it is anyway. I had to go looking for it but it was still there so I guess Sandy and associates think it is important enough information to keep it up on YouTube. I sincerely hope you find this useful and look forward to discussing this topic if necessary.

 

[dakhlkt22]

I'm just a little hesitant to past this Sandy Munro YouTube link because it might become fodder for the EV naysayers but here it is anyway. I had to go looking for it but it was still there so I guess Sandy and associates think it is important enough information to keep it up on YouTube. I sincerely hope you find this useful and look forward to discussing this topic if necessary.

Thanks for sharing this with me. Have never seen this particular Munro video.

A penny of up front scaring is worth a pound of cure. I was actually planning on a 14-50 Hubbell which I have heard a lot of good things about. After watching this, a hard wired charger has moved from probably not to maybe. At least it's reassuring that if I go with the Hubbell, it seems like he approved.

Hard to tell because he didn't say who the manufacturers are, but it can't hurt to go with UL rated from well known manufacturers. That's not a guarantee, but you figure you're getting a bit more quality control than if you buying the cheapest knock off import from Amazon where there is no recourse because there isn't even a known manufacturer to complain to.

 

[ticobird]

A penny of up front scaring is worth a pound of cure.

I agree and if you look at the date on the video it was 8 months ago. There is so much Tesla information available on the internet it is easy to miss a thing or two. I try real hard to keep myself abreast of new Tesla developments but I've missed a few things as well so don't feel bad.

Hubble has a good reputation but be aware of imitations and if you purchase it then purchase it from a reputable local electrical supply company. Keep records of the purchase as well as the installation. I think I informed my homeowners insurance that I installed it but I'm going to check again anyway.

My takeaway from the video is don't fool around or cheap out on any subpar equipment and definitely go with a reputable electrician for installation. I think the thing that should be part of any conversation is that these EV circuits draw high loads of power for extended continuous time periods which is unlike most every other high capacity circuit found in a typical home excepting the HVAC circuit.

In a somewhat related electrical subject I also ran across information about repeated flipping of a circuit breaker switch. Apparently there are special circuit breakers designed specifically for repeated switching on - off - on scenarios. That was always something I had wondered.

 

[PNWmisty]

Thanks for sharing this with me. Have never seen this particular Munro video.

A penny of up front scaring is worth a pound of cure. I was actually planning on a 14-50 Hubbell which I have heard a lot of good things about. After watching this, a hard wired charger has moved from probably not to maybe. At least it's reassuring that if I go with the Hubbell, it seems like he approved.

Hard to tell because he didn't say who the manufacturers are, but it can't hurt to go with UL rated from well known manufacturers. That's not a guarantee, but you figure you're getting a bit more quality control than if you buying the cheapest knock off import from Amazon where there is no recourse because there isn't even a known manufacturer to complain to.

All NEMA 14-50 outlets you can easily purchase in the US are UL rated, surprisingly, that doesn't mean all of them are high quality, it simply means they manufacturer says they tested it and it worked properly. I don't even think UL tests them all themselves, but, even if they did, they would be testing new units, not older ones with use and oxidation. Also, most of the burned/melted outlets are from "reputable" manufacturers like Levitron, etc. It means nothing when the almighty dollar is at stake, most of the UL listed outlets from "reputable" manufacturers are garbage. If you want a good one, you might have to buy it online or go to a specialty store, not the big-box store.

Even the highest quality outlet is sub-optimal for charging EV's. It's actually easier to hard wire a wall unit vs. NEMA 14-50 and it's cheaper to run the wires because you need 3 wires (two conductors and a ground) vs. 4 wires for the NEMA 14-50 (three conductors and a ground). Using a NEMA 14-50 instead of hard wiring requires more than 33% more copper for the same sized circuit (because conductors have to be a larger diameter than the ground and there is one more wire) and it requires making at least two more electrical connections. It is a violation of electrical code to install a NEMA 14-50 with only two conductors and a ground while that is the only way to install a Wall Connector.

I don't know why we have so many people pushing the use of a charger intended for charging on a road trip for everyday use at home. There is a reason it has "mobile" in the name, because that's what it's designed for. Sure, Mobile Connectors work, and I wouldn't hesitate to use one if the outlet is there, after checking it for safety. But it makes no sense for new installs to not hard wire the charging station that is actually intended for home use. The money you save on wire and not needing to buy a NEMA-14-50 will nearly pay for the difference between the Mobile Charger and a more robust Wall Connector.

People say, "What if I move? I want to take my charger with me." Personally, if I own the house, I would rather list the house for sale as coming with a NACS compatible EV charging station of xx amps than mess around with bringing it with me. Are you going to bring that expensive Hubble NEMA 14-50 with you too? LOL! But if you really want to take a Wall Connector with you, it's super simple. take it off the bracket by loosening one retaining screw, remove the bracket from the wall by using an electric screwdriver, and loosen the three terminal connections and remove the three wires and cap them with wire nuts. Then the new buyer can mount their own Wall Connector there, LOL! Some people will take their hardwired range and dishwasher with them too!

Nearly everyone will be driving EV's in 10 years so nearly every house will need a NACS compatible charging station (or two or three in a power-sharing arrangement). Mobile connectors cannot work in a power-sharing arrangement, the Wall Connector wins again! I think people that hate EV's might be the ones be the ones behind recommending NEMA outlets as a primary charging solution because they don't want to see real permanent EV charging infrastructure start to become ubiquitous in most homes. Because guess what kind of car the buyer of a new home equipped with a Wall Connector is likely to buy after they get moved in? That's right, an ELECTRIC car. Oh, the horrors of it!

 

[PNWmisty]

Who plugs and unplugs their EVSE from the wall regularly? I believe that most just leave it plugged in. I don't believe that people are generally sharing these plugs.

People who bring their Mobile Connector with them when they are mobile and away from a Supercharger? They are intended to travel with the car, not to sit at home.

 

[FRC]

Who plugs and unplugs their EVSE from the wall regularly? I believe that most just leave it plugged in. I don't believe that people are generally sharing these plugs.

I think you're probably right. Most people who charge with the mobile connector likely leave in plugged in consistently. I'm the exception. For my frequent rod trips, I unplug the MC and take it with me then re-plug it at home upon my return. I've been doing this for five years, plugging and unplugging from my big-box receptacle. No issues, no wear, no tear, no melting, no fires. My car has greater degradation than does my wall outlet.

When I bought my first Tesla the Mobile Connector was included along with 15- and 50-amp adapters. I was capable of installing a 14/50 outlet myself. So, with a total expense of $111, my home charging solution was up and running. If I was doing it again today, I'm not sure which way I would go since the MC and adapters are no longer included. The price difference between MC and WC are much closer.

The point is that there are several viable options. And what works best for you may not be best for me. Educate yourself, explore your options and pick the charging solution that best meets your needs and your wallet.

 

[dakhlkt22]

All NEMA 14-50 outlets you can easily purchase in the US are UL rated, surprisingly, that doesn't mean all of them are high quality, it simply means they manufacturer says they tested it and it worked properly. I don't even think UL tests them all themselves, but, even if they did, they would be testing new units, not older ones with use and oxidation. Also, most of the burned/melted outlets are from "reputable" manufacturers like Levitron, etc. It means nothing when the almighty dollar is at stake, most of the UL listed outlets from "reputable" manufacturers are garbage. If you want a good one, you might have to buy it online or go to a specialty store, not the big-box store.

Even the highest quality outlet is sub-optimal for charging EV's. It's actually easier to hard wire a wall unit vs. NEMA 14-50 and it's cheaper to run the wires because you need 3 wires (two conductors and a ground) vs. 4 wires for the NEMA 14-50 (three conductors and a ground). Using a NEMA 14-50 instead of hard wiring requires more than 33% more copper for the same sized circuit (because conductors have to be a larger diameter than the ground and there is one more wire) and it requires making at least two more electrical connections. It is a violation of electrical code to install a NEMA 14-50 with only two conductors and a ground while that is the only way to install a Wall Connector.

I don't know why we have so many people pushing the use of a charger intended for charging on a road trip for everyday use at home. There is a reason it has "mobile" in the name, because that's what it's designed for. Sure, Mobile Connectors work, and I wouldn't hesitate to use one if the outlet is there, after checking it for safety. But it makes no sense for new installs to not hard wire the charging station that is actually intended for home use. The money you save on wire and not needing to buy a NEMA-14-50 will nearly pay for the difference between the Mobile Charger and a more robust Wall Connector.

People say, "What if I move? I want to take my charger with me." Personally, if I own the house, I would rather list the house for sale as coming with a NACS compatible EV charging station of xx amps than mess around with bringing it with me. Are you going to bring that expensive Hubble NEMA 14-50 with you too? LOL! But if you really want to take a Wall Connector with you, it's super simple. take it off the bracket by loosening one retaining screw, remove the bracket from the wall by using an electric screwdriver, and loosen the three terminal connections and remove the three wires and cap them with wire nuts. Then the new buyer can mount their own Wall Connector there, LOL! Some people will take their hardwired range and dishwasher with them too!

Nearly everyone will be driving EV's in 10 years so nearly every house will need a NACS compatible charging station (or two or three in a power-sharing arrangement). Mobile connectors cannot work in a power-sharing arrangement, the Wall Connector wins again! I think people that hate EV's might be the ones be the ones behind recommending NEMA outlets as a primary charging solution because they don't want to see real permanent EV charging infrastructure start to become ubiquitous in most homes. Because guess what kind of car the buyer of a new home equipped with a Wall Connector is likely to buy after they get moved in? That's right, an ELECTRIC car. Oh, the horrors of it!

In the video, I think the electrician said that there should even be a rating for EV charging since that puts a much heavier load on these receptacles than a dryer or something would. So maybe there need to be different tiers of 14-50 receptacles to differentiate continuous use from once a week use.

Moving to NACS definitely changes the equation. One of my original reasons to install 14-50 was the flexibility it would give a future homeowner. That reason is basically gone now that all US EVs will be NACS.

I was originally thinking a wall connector might be overkill. Interesting that a hard wired wall connector uses less wiring than a 14-50. The wall connector is a 60A circuit so are you sure that's the case due to the thicker wire gauge? In my case, I'm having an electrician do the work, so the difference or sameness in cost of materials won't matter. I think the electrician will price it based on the perceived value, so they will charge more for a 60A circuit.

 

[JerryR]

The Tesla Mobile Connector is an EVSE (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment) Every EV uses some sort of EVSE to connect at home. Tesla uses a NACS plug/connector at the car input where most other EVs use J1772 plug/connectors. Tesla provided a J1772 to NASC adaptor with my Model Y so I could use a J1772 EVSE to charge my car.

EVSEs also use two-way communication between the EVSE and car's built in charger so that the correct charging current is set based on the maximum current the EVSE can provide as well as the maximum current the car's charger can receive.

 

[JerryR]

I always recommend EV owners get a Wall Connector and hardwire it to charge their car at home. It's more robust and has lower risk of fire over time. We are seeing too many fires and melted NEMA 14-50 outlets. Hardwiring is no more difficult than hardwiring a NEMA 15-50 outlet in place.

It's not likely that electric cars are going away anytime soon, and that implies every garage will need convenient and safe charging infrastructure. Now that the NACS standard is moving from the defacto standard to the official standard, it's a no-brainer. Not that it wasn't before.

^^^^^ This Totally agree.

 

[PNWmisty]

Moving to NACS definitely changes the equation. One of my original reasons to install 14-50 was the flexibility it would give a future homeowner. That reason is basically gone now that all US EVs will be NACS.

I argued on this forum for two years that it was foolish to think that installing EVSE that used a J1772 plug would "future proof" the install because the defacto standard was the smaller, more convenient, cheaper Tesla standard (now known as NACS). And the reason it was the defacto standard were there were more EV's and more fast charging stations that used NACS vs CCS and both the NACS chargers and NACS EV's were multiplying at a faster rate than CCS. Now that auto manufacturers have seen the light and moved to the superior standard, I'm sure that Tesla owners that installed J1772 EVSE's in the garages probably feel a little surprised.

I was originally thinking a wall connector might be overkill. Interesting that a hard wired wall connector uses less wiring than a 14-50. The wall connector is a 60A circuit so are you sure that's the case due to the thicker wire gauge? In my case, I'm having an electrician do the work, so the difference or sameness in cost of materials won't matter. I think the electrician will price it based on the perceived value, so they will charge more for a 60A circuit.

The Gen. II Wall Connector can be installed on any sized circuit, from 15 amp up to 100 amp, the required wire size will need to meet the requirements of whatever size circuit you choose to run it on. When I said the NEMA 14-50 requires more than 30% more copper to install to code, I was comparing apples to apples, a 240V 50 amp circuit to a 240V 50 amp circuit. If you have additional panel capacity to spare, there is nothing to stop you from running it on a 60A, 80A, or 100 amp circuit. I have one of our Wall Connectors installed on a 100 amp circuit due to having 200 amps just for our carport and to facilitate running more charge stations off the one power feed. I decided to run the wiring in the wall rather than in surface mount conduit and didn't want to have to open the wall again because it was not sheetrock but horizontal tongue and groove pine. Tesla will probably release a higher powered version of the Wall Connector with the introduction of the Cybertruck so I'm glad I installed the 100 amp circuit even though a 60 amp circuit may have sufficed because, in my application, the 100 amp circuit will likely end up being wired to two Wall Connectors and used in a power-sharing arrangement and I won't have to open the wall up again now that we have repainted. Surface-mount conduit and unsheathed THWN wiring is the less expensive way to go but it would have interfered with other functionality in our application.

Note: I just checked Tesla.com and the Gen III Wall Connector can be run on any sized circuit up to 60 amps (vs. 100 amps on the Gen II). The Gen II doesn't have Wi-fi if that is something you're interested in and it's no longer available at Tesla.com, it can still be bought on Amazon for $420. The Gen III on Tesla.com is $470 for the NACS version and comes with free shipping. This is a good price for the quality, power level and versatility of being able to power share up to 6 Wall Connectors on a single circuit.

 

[Ed Woodrick]

I think you're probably right. Most people who charge with the mobile connector likely leave in plugged in consistently. I'm the exception. For my frequent rod trips, I unplug the MC and take it with me then re-plug it at home upon my return. I've been doing this for five years, plugging and unplugging from my big-box receptacle. No issues, no wear, no tear, no melting, no fires. My car has greater degradation than does my wall outlet.

When I bought my first Tesla the Mobile Connector was included along with 15- and 50-amp adapters. I was capable of installing a 14/50 outlet myself. So, with a total expense of $111, my home charging solution was up and running. If I was doing it again today, I'm not sure which way I would go since the MC and adapters are no longer included. The price difference between MC and WC are much closer.

The point is that there are several viable options. And what works best for you may not be best for me. Educate yourself, explore your options and pick the charging solution that best meets your needs and your wallet.

That's why I have 2 mobile connectors for each car, two stay plugged in, two stay in each car.

 

[JerryR]

That's why I have 2 mobile connectors for each car, two stay plugged in, two stay in each car.

I have 3 mobile connectors, 2 teslas and 2 homes.

2 mobile connectors, one in each of our (2) Tesla trucks.
1 permanently plugged into the 14-50 receptacle at our cabin
And one Wall connector at the house that is hardwired to a 60 amp to put out 48 amps to the car.

Backup at the house is a a 14-30 to 14-50 adaptor to use a mobile connector plugged into the clothes dryer outlet, feeding at 24 amps to the car. The adaptor is also used to power the RV on the rare occasion it is at the house.

 

[FRC]

our (2) Tesla trucks.

???

 

[garsh]

???

I assume he meant to type "trunks". 🤣

 

[FRC]

I assume he meant to type "trunks". 🤣

Thanks, Garsh. I don't normally call out typos, but I couldn't figure that one out!